The Original Trio

[Gideon]

I posted this on fanfiction.net today. So far, I've got one chapter up (I think it's only going to be about two chapters long.)

Anyway, the link is:

www.fanfiction.net/s/3036590/1/

[Gouki]

It's a nice idea, and the writing style is technically very nice. You have a decent feel for the characters, having only seen a few episodes. However, I don't buy it. The whole story seems melodramatic and over the top. I'll expand later, I have an appointment.

[Peaceout]

I like the story. Its really good. I like how you went way back and told how Corrine, Lucas and Marshall met. I dont think its over the top, I think its entertaining like a story should be.

[Gideon]

gouki said:

The whole story seems melodramatic and over the top.

I'd agree that it's probably a bit melodramatic. I'm not sure I agree that it's over-the-top...maybe a little, but not to a big extent. But I look forward to reading your other comments.

I've asked OMGitsheathe in another PM if she could send me season two and three as well, so hopefully, I'll get to see the entire series soon. She's really been very kind to me; I'm enormously thankful to her.

[Gouki]

gideon said:

gouki said:

The whole story seems melodramatic and over the top.

I'd agree that it's probably a bit melodramatic. I'm not sure I agree that it's over-the-top...maybe a little, but not to a big extent. But I look forward to reading your other comments.

Over-the-top melodrama is what I meant. Basically, no school would allow that sort of abuse. Not even Blake Holsey Madison might be a cutie, but I can't see her and her friends actually slapping him and standing around in a circle like a witchhunt. They would have bullied him, but unless it's against other girls (or they're older and have heard you call them a slut), they tend to not bring in he physical violence.

If it was Kubiak or someone attacking Lucas, I could probably buy it, but Madison and her friend's wouldn't get their hands dirty. Maybe Vaughn in the background starting the name calling and Kubiak starting the pushing. And then Madison and the Madette's continue the name calling then I could buy it.

As shown in Lifetime (was it Lifetime?) when confronted with the idea of bullying she gives Lucas the standard "stand up to them and tell a teacher" thing, but that's better than ignoring it. Even after a few years, they would still say that, so it makes more sense than ignorance and just jumping to the conclusion that it's crazy evil!science. I just can't see her ignoring students on that level, even after jumping to that conclusion when Marshall tied to tell her it was something else she would have listened. And it made it seem more like everyone outright hates him in the school, except Marshall and Corrine. As in they want him dead and will do it themselves.

Corrine standing up for Lucas was good. As was Marshall. Both were very in character. However, I can't see Corrine minding too much about being somewhat alone at the school, spending all her time studying and all. She puts a very business like front up, and I'm not too sure it's just a front. She wasn't too keen on Josie either, preferring a room to herself. It's only later that she really learns how much she likes her friends and how much she needs them.

Lucas I can't really see as crying about it at the beginning, just getting really angry or depressed, at least by this stage. Once you hit about 10, the crying stops, and you just develop a rage and depression where in you feel powerless which then turns into snide comments and simply being the better person. Unless, of course, he had a black eye or some physical thing while he was crying in the bathroom. Crying after the physical problems, yeah sure, I still think that scene would b stronger establishing Kubiak and Vaughn as antagonists early on in his Blake Holsey, perhaps making it even more resonant with the idea that they become pretty good friends during the early parts of the series (even if it mostly out of envy, Lucas want's to be popular and rich, Vaughn want's a friendship like M/L). Having been bullied since I was six and all.

But like I said, it's good to see fics that explore the pre-show adventures at Blake Holsey (perhaps with some of the Conclusions knowledge someone should have a try at Josie--being more than human and all?), and your writing is very strong. So is the idea behind it.

[Gideon]

gouki said:

[Madison might be a cutie, but I can't see her and her friends actually slapping him and standing around in a circle like a witchhunt. They would have bullied him, but unless it's against other girls (or they're older and have heard you call them a slut), they tend to not bring in he physical violence.

I see what you mean. It probably would have been better if I'd had Stu Kubiak and some of his friends bullying Lucas, but I wanted to give the impression of Lucas being quite downtrodden, and letting people ride roughshod over him, and I thought having a group of girls pick on him would support that image, and also be more humiliating for him - having girls pick on him, rather than boys. I didn't think about it at the time, but now I've given the issue some thought, I think you're right about Madison and her friends probably not using violence.

gouki said:

I still think that scene would b stronger establishing Kubiak and Vaughn as antagonists early on in his Blake Holsey, perhaps making it even more resonant with the idea that they become pretty good friends during the early parts of the series (even if it mostly out of envy, Lucas want's to be popular and rich, Vaughn want's a friendship like M/L). Having been bullied since I was six and all.

That's a really good idea. I had considered having Vaughn be one of the bullies, but I decided against it because in the first few episodes, Vaughn doesn't come across to me as the type of guy who would spend a great deal of time going after people to bully them. He's nasty to Lucas in Wormhole, but he doesn't come across to me as the type of person who would make a habit out of constantly going after Lucas, and people like him, to bully them. He strikes me as more the sort of person who would usually ignore people like Lucas, but would sometimes tease them/bully them, but not make a regular thing of it. The reason he was nasty to Lucas in Wormhole was because Lucas inadvertently drew Vaughn's attention to him by telling Marshall his story about Professor Middleton disappearing; I think that if Lucas had been telling Marshall something ordinary, like what he had for breakfast that morning, then Vaughn would have just ignored him and not bothered him.

Having said that, though, I suppose one could argue that the fact that Marshall doesn't really stick up for Lucas after Vaughn has been nasty to him, could be evidence that Vaughn does tease Lucas quite a lot, and that they're used to it by now, so Marshall doesn't bother to say anything on Lucas' behalf. But then again, it could be taken the other way - that Vaughn only teases Lucas occasionally and that because it only happens sometimes, Marshall doesn't feel it's serious enough to stick up for him. I'm leaning more towards Vaughn being an "irregular bully"; what do you think, Gouki?

I know I've rambled on this point...

[Gouki]

gideon said:

and I thought having a group of girls pick on him would support that image, and also be more humiliating for him - having girls pick on him, rather than boys.

It is more humiliating, I just, personally, feel it humiliates and emsculates Lucas to a point where it becomes parody.

That's a really good idea. I had considered having Vaughn be one of the bullies, but I decided against it because in the first few episodes, Vaughn doesn't come across to me as the type of guy who would spend a great deal of time going after people to bully them. He's nasty to Lucas in Wormhole, but he doesn't come across to me as the type of person who would make a habit out of constantly going after Lucas, and people like him, to bully them. He strikes me as more the sort of person who would usually ignore people like Lucas, but would sometimes tease them/bully them, but not make a regular thing of it. The reason he was nasty to Lucas in Wormhole was because Lucas inadvertently drew Vaughn's attention to him by telling Marshall his story about Professor Middleton disappearing; I think that if Lucas had been telling Marshall something ordinary, like what he had for breakfast that morning, then Vaughn would have just ignored him and not bothered him.

Having said that, though, I suppose one could argue that the fact that Marshall doesn't really stick up for Lucas after Vaughn has been nasty to him, could be evidence that Vaughn does tease Lucas quite a lot, and that they're used to it by now, so Marshall doesn't bother to say anything on Lucas' behalf. But then again, it could be taken the other way - that Vaughn only teases Lucas occasionally and that because it only happens sometimes, Marshall doesn't feel it's serious enough to stick up for him. I'm leaning more towards Vaughn being an "irregular bully"; what do you think, Gouki?

Well, the problem with Vaughn's bullying is that from the start he was intended to be a main character, and a good guy. He wasn't... Cordelia, or a reverse Faith. He gave a couple of snide remarks, but becasue of there being limits in childrens shows, and it needing to move forward quickly, they couldn't have Vaughn be as cruel as he was meant to be. We only saw him for a couple of minutes before he became one of the Scoobies Science Club. His bullying is pretty girly, I can't see him ever doing anything physical to Lucas until, after they become friends and they get drunk and spend they night together unless Kubiak or someone pressured him into it, preferring instead to be the snide vocalist. Something I see as having been going on since they both started, which is why Marshall mock's Lucas' attempt at a come back and even Lucas doesn't get worked up about it. It's just become part of a daily routine, albiet a depressing once.

I mean, Lucas is uneasy with Vaughn until Storm, where their friendship begins to grow becuase of the aforementioned envy. Then in Brainwaves, where cracks begin to show as both have a thing for Josie, before coming to a head in Stopwatch, when he loses all trust in him for what he does to Josie in Transference.

[Gideon]

gouki said:

Well, the problem with Vaughn's bullying is that from the start he was intended to be a main character, and a good guy.

That's a good point. You're right, as they wanted Vaughn to be on the "good" side and wanted viewers to like him, I suppose they couldn't run the risk of alienating him from the viewers.

gouki said:

I mean, Lucas is uneasy with Vaughn until Storm

I agree that he's uneasy with him in the first few episodes, but I haven't seen anything that really suggests that it lasts right up until Storm.

I think they're a little unsure of each other in the first three or four episodes - there's Vaughn's aforementioned bullying of Lucas in Wormhole, in Invisible and Thursday, they don't really interact, and in Magnet, everyone at first seems a little uneasy with Vaughn's presence, and he's not presented as being completely on their side at first, as when he first enters, he calls them "half pint" and "big brain", etc. I also thought Lucas's remark to Vaughn's asking, "What's going on here?" was a little catty - "It's science - it's what we do here."

However, I got the impression that by Lifetime, Vaughn seemed to have been pretty much accepted by all of them, including Lucas. They're all playing together in the game, and although Vaughn goes to great lengths to avoid choosing Lucas, I don't see this as done in a nasty way - he's just well aware that Lucas is hopeless at sports, and while it probably humiliated Lucas to have Vaughn choose the guy in the wheelchair over him, I don't think Vaughn had any nasty intentions towards Lucas.

I'm sorry to keep on about this, but what is it that makes you feel that Lucas was uneasy with Vaughn right up until Storm? Do you feel that way because, until that episode, their relationship wasn't really explored in great depth? Or maybe we're just interpreting things differently.

With regards to the deterioration of Lucas and Vaughn's friendship, while I'd agree that some chinks probably appear in the armour (pardon the expression) around Brainwaves, I've also heard the view expressed that it was this episode that brought them closer, as they learned a lot about what the other's life was like. And although I don't remember too much about Echolocation, I do remember getting the impression from that episode that Vaughn and Lucas were good friends, so I tend to see it as them generally remaining good friends (with a small undercurrent of jealousy) up until Stopwatch/Transference, where their relationship completely disintegrates.

[Gouki]

gideon said:

gouki said:

Well, the problem with Vaughn's bullying is that from the start he was intended to be a main character, and a good guy.

That's a good point. You're right, as they wanted Vaughn to be on the "good" side and wanted viewers to like him, I suppose they couldn't run the risk of alienating him from the viewers.

To continue with Cordelia Chase, they gave her a whole 10 episodes to be the selfish, rude, bullying antagonist that Buffy couldn't slay, before they made her the human, selfish, rude semi-friend, before they made her one of the most awesome characters ever, starting with her smooching Xander.

With Vaughn, they gave him 5 minutes. Which is a shame, to see Vaughn as more of an antagonist would have been great, instead we got:

1) "Luchead"
2) Josie will hurt him
3) Daddy doesn't love me/Chocolate sauce
4) Watch me join the science club!

It was a little short and results in a couple of relationships being smooshed out of the way or simplified. A relationship with a bully isn't that easy to get over.

gouki said:

I mean, Lucas is uneasy with Vaughn until Storm

I agree that he's uneasy with him in the first few episodes, but I haven't seen anything that really suggests that it lasts right up until Storm.

I'm sorry to keep on about this, but what is it that makes you feel that Lucas was uneasy with Vaughn right up until Storm? Do you feel that way because, until that episode, their relationship wasn't really explored in great depth? Or maybe we're just interpreting things differently.

Lucas had never even been in his room before Storm. That's one of the main reasons. He didn't know how much Vaughn wanted a close friendship, or that he even liked video games. Up until then, Vaughn was just the jock who helped make his life hell. He wasn't a true member of the Science Club until he comes clean to them about everything. He wasn't even really there by his own choice until then, really. He needed better grades, his dad told him to go, and in response told him to stay to learn things. Then Vaughn realised how much he enjoyed it and liked having actual friends.

Yeah. I'm not a fan of the Lifetime episode, it was one of the clunkers of season one. Real after-school special, that one.

[Gideon]

All good points.

Now that I think about it, I did get the impression that Lucas was slightly uneasy for a while, when he was talking to Vaughn in his room. The conversation seemed a little forced, like they were struggling to come up with things to talk about. Part of that could have been Vaughn worrying about his spying on his friends, but it could be seen as evidence that they haven't really gotten to know each other before that point.

gouki said:

Yeah. I'm not a fan of the Lifetime episode, it was one of the clunkers of season one. Real after-school special, that one.

Lifetime isn't one of my favourites, either. I do like it, but it's probably one of my least favourites of season one. I think it's mostly to do with the fact that Lucas is my favourite character, but he spends a lot of that episode as a man. (Which is a very fangirlish statement to make, I admit, and I apologise. )

[{88Keys}]

I can't really say anything that Gouki hasn't already said. You're writing is strong, and most of it is in character. I still don't think the dialouge is quite right; as in your other story, it doesn't quite sound like the characters talking. I think it's a bit wordy at times, and the characters ramble a bit. I would suggest using less words in future stories, especially in the dialouge. Say more by saying less.

I think having Madison and her friends beat the snot out of Lucas is totally out-of-character with what we know of Madison (which, admittedly, is not much). Madison is selfish and stuck up, but I don't see her being violent at all (and not just because she's a girl, either). I mean, if nothing else, I just don't think she would want to get her hands dirty like that. Then again, it could be agrued that we just didn't see that side of her on the show b/c it's a kids show, and you're just expanding on an idea in your fic. And that would be a valid point, and kind of what fanfic is about in the first place.

I don't see Vaughn as being a violent bully either. I think his past bullying was pretty much like Madison's, and was done more out of insecurity, and false bravado than any real malice. If anything, I think Vaughn probably teased to go along with the group. But I'm a bit biased towards Vaughn, so my opinion probably shouldn't count. I can't help it; he's my favorite because he just has so many issues.

I hope you will finish this though, and that you will continue to write more. And remember, it's always OK to go back and revise if you decide you're not happy with something. My writing teachers always said "there's no such thing as a 'final' copy."

[MirrorCard]

88keys said:

I think having Madison and her friends beat the snot out of Lucas is totally out-of-character with what we know of Madison (which, admittedly, is not much). Madison is selfish and stuck up, but I don't see her being violent at all (and not just because she's a girl, either). I mean, if nothing else, I just don't think she would want to get her hands dirty like that. Then again, it could be agrued that we just didn't see that side of her on the show b/c it's a kids show, and you're just expanding on an idea in your fic. And that would be a valid point, and kind of what fanfic is about in the first place.

Madison does strike me as one who'd get someone else to do her dirty work. In Genome, she did have a front row view of Stu ready to clobber Lucas, and looked to be enjoying herself.

gouki said:

Yeah. I'm not a fan of the Lifetime episode, it was one of the clunkers of season one. Real after-school special, that one.

Hey, I liked Lifetime! However, I like it because it has some great Durst material. And we get a great evil-doer quote from Victor.
The Lucas material is rather cheesy - "I know to go to someone bigger if I'm getting picked on" is a message every teenage-targetted show needs to try to fit in, I guess

gouki said:

With Vaughn, they gave him 5 minutes. Which is a shame, to see Vaughn as more of an antagonist would have been great, instead we got:
...
3) Daddy doesn't love me/Chocolate sauce
...

I just have to say this: "Because Daddy never hugs me!" ;D *hopes Jesi doesn't see this post*. You'll only understand that if you've seen the commercial.